Denigration of the Roman Catholic Church is demonic in nature and origin. This is not to say justified criticism is demonic, but how much mud slinging is really loving criticism? I know the Roman Catholic Church is not perfect but it is the church of God and practitioners of her faith are true Christians. This can be definitively determined based on Holy Scripture. What is the true test of a Christian? "You will know they are Christians by their love for one another." This is the benchmark by which we measure our communion.
"If I speak in human and angelic tongues, but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophesy, and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interest, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrong doing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, hopes all things, endures all things." So this becomes the manner in which we should conduct ourselves and the measure by which we treat our Christian brothers and sisters. But it is not new news, it is from the foundation of our faith.
We are given gifts by the Holy Spirit such as apostleship, prophesy, evangelizing, teaching, discernment of spirits, compassion, and others. The demonic exert power in the world in the same manner. They give gifts of boldness, rage, ambition, fierce will power, pride, the power of persuasion and similar qualities. People are able to use these gifts to advance the agenda of the demonic. It can be subtle and we need to be aware of this type of demonic attack. Just because we are Christian does not mean we are immune from the attacks of the Evil One, it means the opposite. We are the better than the Delta Force, the Navy SEALS, Force Recon and Pararescue all put together. We are the Soldiers of the Most High God so we become the primary objects of demonic attack and we need to quit committing fratricide. Just being on watch for this type of behavior is enough to fight it pretty effectively. Let me also say that denigration of other churches by the Roman Catholics are also fratricide and this is exactly the type of behavior that the demonic powers encourage and work towards. We are called to be a unified church - one in Christ Jesus. I will finally believe that this is what our church leadership is working for when I see the call for a universal church council and not ever before.
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32 comments:
Joel,
I enjoyed this post.
Soph,
Thanks, I thought you would, and I also enjoyed writting it.
Be well,
Joel
Hello Joel. Thank you for the post. What is your view of the Mormon Church and Jehovah's Witnesses in regard to unity of Christians? Just curious, Costa.
Costa,
I wish I knew more anout Jehovah's Witnesses, but unfortunately I am completely ignorant regarding their theology.
As for Mormons, they are heretics, but they do profess Jesus is Lord, and their morality has a strong Christian base. They deny the Holy Trinity though. I do not think they should be denied fellowship by any means, but they do need correction in their theology before entering into full communion. If my memory serves me at all then the major heresies attack either the divinty or the humanity of Christ. Mormonism attacks His divinty by denying His unity with the Father, claiming that He is a child of God, just as we all are, instead of God incarnate.
I think God holds special affection for heretical Christians. I see a couple of good things they do for the Church. Many great saints were raised up by the Church fighting heresies and our universal councils were, for a large part arranged in opposition to heretics. Many good things came to be in the Church, in defense of Christ, through fighting heresy, so I think God would probably hold much mercy for their theology.
Grace and peace,
Joel
I think you're right about their theology, but as for God's mercy, I guess we walk by the light we are given, and God will judge each of us accordingly.
I think that John says in one of his epistles that anyone who does not acknowledge that Christ is God come in the flesh is anti-Christ.
Joel and Constantine,
Gentlemen, the Mormons and the JW's are NOT Christians in any sense of the word, period. They are not heretics in the sense that they at one time possessed the fullness of the Faith, but are heretical in the sense that out and out their "theology"("demonology" is more appropro) does not map unto a Christian "worldview" whatsoever.
Yes, they claim Jesus as Lord. But which Jesus? Remember, there are many "Jesus's" out there, the Muslims have their version, the Mormons have theirs, the JW's have theirs, heck, if you leave me to my own devices, I can construct my own version.
Guarded within the Church is the authentic, cannot-be-compromised-one-iota of who He is. It is not open to debate. When we allow ourselves the liberty to knowingly accept ANY distortion of that Faith once handed down to us, we must remember that the ramifications are cosmic, not merely temporal.
These are some of my thoughts.
Costa,
I am not aware of that verse, but if you show it to me I will believe. One that I am aware of in his first letter says, "Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well." This is not exactly saying that whoever denies that Jesus is God made flesh is the antichrist, and I know the Mormons do not deny that Jesus is the Anointed One. In John's third letter he instructs us to, "Do not imitate evil but imitate good. Whoever does what is good is of God; whoever does what is evil has never seen God." And we see the fruits of the labor of the Mormons - strong family values, strong community values, good morality in all regards. The holiness of their manner of living is irrefutable, and that leads me to believe they have seen God, and they love Christians, which is the test of a Christian. "You will know them for their love of one another." Jesus does not require us to be theologians to be saved, and He does not require us to become theologians to hang on to our salvation. This does not mean that we can be wreckless in what we believe, but it does mean that we anyone who goes to the cross can find salvation, even if our theology is up-side-down, twisted and in-side-out.
I understand what you mean by living a moral life, and by His grace He will be merciful to those who don't hurt others and try to always do good. But I think that Jesus did not come to give us moral teachings. God could have done that through a prophet.
Costa,
I agree with you that Jesus did not come to give us morality, and I am sorry if I implied that with my post. I only mean to guard against casting undue judgement.
Sophocles,
I agree that heretics must be called as such and their theology desperately needs correction, but I think it goes a little too far comparing the Mormons and JW's with Muslims.
Of course, judgement is God's. When you refer to fellowship, what do you mean by that? Joint prayers, hanging out? Just curious.
Joel,
I believe you missed the thrust of my post. I was not comparing Mormons with Muslims but stating that there are many "Jesus's" out there and that each group has their own version and I cited these particular groups merely as examples. I also wished to stated clearly that the Jesus the Mormons acknowledge has zero, none, zippo, nadda, nil, NO resemblance whatsoever to the Jesus of the Church. He is a couneterfeit Jesus and the very fact that Mormons are indeed so moral in many respects makes the movement even more diabolical and fiendish.
Now, having said that, I believe a charitable stance should be taken towards Mormons(or Orthodox, or Roman Catholics, or atheists or whomever) as it is only through the Cross that we may come to know salvation. But we must vigorously uphold the true Faith which provides the true context and soil where broken humanity may come to be healed. Mormonism does not do that, but is "another gospel", which the Apostle warns us to beware of. Only in the Church is Jesus known in His fullness.
Sophocles,
I understand, I did think you were sayng something completely different.
Costa,
In saying we should be in fellowship with Mormons I mean we should engage in loving friendships and be open about our spirituality with each other. This is very different than trying to be open with our spirituality with a Muslin, an athiest, a pagan, a Buhdist, a Hindu or what ever other type of religion is out there because they are so overtly antichrist. Mormons and JW's, on the other hand are not. I hardly believe anyone would be interested in praying with me other than another Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian.
I think we should be open with our spirituality with every person regardless of anything. But would you pray a prayer to Jesus with a Mormon?
Costa,
I would pray with a Mormon, and I have before. So have you.
Would you say amen to a Mormon prayer to Jesus?
I really don't believe I will ever be put in that situation.
If you are in that situation, would you say amen to a Mormon prayer to Jesus?
It's a simple yes or no, im just curious.
I would insinst on leading the prayer. Why do you ask?
I ask because we worship in truth. If you were in a situation where a prayer were led by a Mormon to Jesus, would you say amen to that prayer?
This is something I never considered before because I never imagined I would be in the situation, and I still don't believe I would be in the situation, but just for argument's sake, I guess it would depend on the situation. Unlike Sophocles, I do not believe the Jesus of the Mormons is a demon. Mormonism is just Arianism dressed up in new clothes. I think there would be some times when it would be good and bear good fruit, and sometimes not. It is something that would require discrenment and a knowledge of the company.
Yes, the Jesus of Mormonism is not God, but a creature. Would you say amen to a prayer to Jesus offered by a Mormon, who does not believe that Jesus is co-teternal with the Father, and is not praying to the only begotten Son of God, thereby offering worship to a creature named Jesus? As a Christian, this is an area where I may be called on by God to defend the truth of my Faith. I know what I would do, I'm just wondering if yes you would, or no you would not.
I thought I was pretty clear in the last answer I gave, but obviously I was not. I would never pray to to anyone other than the One Living God.
Ok I'm sorry. I'm with you. I would NEVER say amen when a Mormon or anyone who does not accept the Trinity says a prayer to Jesus either.
Joel,
I never said that the Mormon Jesus is a demon specifically, but since you have now said I said that, it sounds good to me. But I stated that their "theology", when contrasted to the authentic Christian Faith, can only be the work of the evil one, using the Saviour's name, even as the title of their religion, claiming to speak truth and leading millions along the teachings of this so-called Jesus away from their transfiguration and healing in Christ to another system of belief which is so opposed to that which has been once delivered to the saints.
As an aside, what, for arguments sake may we possibly assume of the state of Arius' soul, who, as a bishop in the Church willfully and knowingly went against the truth and caused many others to fall from the True Faith? And in what way are you saying that Mormonism is Arianism? The two are very different in my mind.
I think we may have very different understandings of what the Faith is to begin with and what it means to "be saved". I think if we can embark hashing out some of these preliminary foundational issues, this specific discussion involving Mormonism would work itself out.
Sophocles,
I guess I will answer the easiest questions first. The Church is not in the business of saying whether or not someone is damned, only if someone has been saved, so in the case of Arius, since we do not know with certainty that he is in Heaven we do not say one way or the other. The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is that God gives everybody exactly what they need to receive salvation at the instant of their death no matter who they are, so Arius may very well be in Heaven. We just do not know. Frankly, it is none of our business either. That is God's decision. I hope with every ounce of my being that he enjoys everlasting joy in the presence of God.
The reason I say Mormonism is the same as Arianism is because they attack the person of Jesus Christ in the same manner, so it is a reincarnation of the same old heresy. Every major heresy does the same thing - they attack the person of Jesus Christ. How many different wawys can the Evil One do that? To make it appeal to a differnt generation it must be dressed up in different clothes than before.
As for salvation, that is not a simple answer. There are three different catagories of salvation - salvation of the soul, which happened on Calvary, salvation of the spirit, which happens daily and salvation of the body, which will happen at the resurrection of the dead. This promises to turn into a long conversation though. I look forward to continueing it.
Joel,
I have a close Oneness Penecostal friend and I know his family so I can empathize with you on a "psychological" level since I am essentially in the same position that you are with regard to the Mormons. I am not trying to be mean or abrasive, but completely clear and unambiguous. I believe that this position of yours concerning their (relative) orthodoxy completely contradicts the plain sense of Scripture, Tradition and Patristics.
"The Church" isn't in the business of ever saying whether or not someone is damned? At present, I am strongly convinced that there is sufficient evidence to vindicate the contrary position:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Joel,
NeoChalcedonian's post spurred this thought: the gist of what I've been attempting to do is to at least have you remove the title "Christianity" from Mormonism. The state of individual adherents to Mormonism is not my place to determine.
As for Arius, I don't have the texts at hand to quote, but his state is fearful at best as he's mentioned in many Orthodox services.
NeoChalcedonian,
I understood part of your post to say that I meant Mormons held an orthodox view of Christ. I am sorry if I gave this impression and it is not what I meant to convey. In order to hold an orthodox view of Jesus Christ you would have to acknowledge the Holy Trinity.
On the pronouncement by the Church on who is saved, what I was trying to say is that the Church does not make difinative statements on individuals who have not received salvation, not that it is possible for an individual to be damned. The Church is simply not in the business of damning individuals, that is Satan's business. The Church's business is in the salvation of souls and that is the end to which she exerts her energy. We see ever too painfully the examples of when she departed from that in history, and the results were disasterous.
Sophocles,
I guess this is just a point of departure from us.
Joel,
Which point specifically?
Hello Joel
I hope I'm not jumping on the band wagon here but I wanted to ask a question. When Jesus says to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing, what do you think he meant by that?
I mean we could probably make a mental list of characteristics that this person displays outwardly. Kind, respectful, accomodating, charitable.
Soph and Costa,
Please forgive me for not responding sooner, but I have not even been comming to this site at all for the most part and the few times I did, it was just briefly.
First I think our point of departure is that I feel no need to take the label of Christian from the Mormon faith. My argument for this is long and I am frankly uninteresting in presenting it via a blog site, but the gist of it is that we must be hard on ourselves, but always easy on others. I think this attitude is more in keeping with the entirety of the gospel than the approach that "the path to salvation is hard and narrow and few obtain it, while the path to destruction is wide and many pass through its gate." Time after time we see God's mercy showered on the whole world and this is truly His desire.
I refuse to see Mormons as "wolves in sheeps' clothing."
Joel,
So, any system that practices good works falls under the banner of Christianity in your thinking?
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